Not another Gurkha Hunger Strike

[Stanchion]

That’s why he repeated it.

Many thanks for that - I blame cheap (free) OCR software but I am usually guilty of not proof-reading my posts until after hitting the button, this time I obviously didn't do it even then

 

[ExREME.TECH]

That's the thing about outrage buses, you wait for ages then two come along together.

Iranian fasters on the left, Gurkha fasters on the right;


View attachment 593886

Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

 

[RoofRat]

You can't win on that one either.

Buried deep in the 12-point demand is one that refers to just that. Its low-profile no doubt because most thinking people would consider that it had little merit, it goes thus.
In 1997, a 'Universal Addition' was brought in which meant that any Gurkhas serving outside Nepal would be paid allowances to keep their pay up to the level of British recruited soldiers serving in the same locations. This had already been done for many years for Gurkha battalions serving tours in UK.
However, when the Gurkha goes on long leave, he is, not surprisingly perhaps not serving overseas and did not qualify for the Universal Addition. It's a fairly easy concept to grasp.

However, in the mindset of these protesters, they were cheated and discriminated against when their UA (essentially a Local Overseas Allowance) was paused by virtue of the fact that they were home in Nepal.
They want 'their money' back - and no doubt some compensation for its 'loss'.

Is there a list of published demands somewhere ?

 

[Stanchion]

Is there a list of published demands somewhere ?

It's a good question and the basic answer is that is appears not to be one for public consumption.

I believe this is because the main theme of the hunger strike has to be pensions, this is the one the media and the public are going to go for most deeply, despite the flimsiness of the Gurkhas argument.
There is a danger that the other points will appear to non-Gurkhas as trivial and indeed vexatious and only serve to dilute the main attention grabber.

It's perhaps of note that the protest group's letter to Boris Johnson, warning of the strike does not talk of pension, instead it refers to

""This dialogue would he the primary step for both the British and Nepal Government to resolve the Ex British Gurkha issues and come to a mutual agreement on all outstanding genuine grievances that has been long overdue. ""
link to article Letter to PM
Occasionally there is an insight into the other demands in the media, this one from Berkshire Live.
""The Gurkhas demands include equal and preserved pension, compensation, a settlement UK visa for adult Gurkha children, equal treatment for the Gurkha widows and free medical facilities to the Gurkha retirees in Nepal as provided to British pensioners in the UK.""

Other demands that have surfaced include which may or may not be in the list but are current
Free British Citizenship for Gurkhas (no fees, no tests)
Compensation for excess time families were kept apart
Compensation for Gurkhas not allowed to extend their service after marrying non-Nepalese.
Pensions for those 100+ soldiers dismissed after the Hawaiian Mutiny.

And so on.

 

[RoofRat]

It's a good question and the basic answer is that is appears not to be one for public consumption.

I believe this is because the main theme of the hunger strike has to be pensions, this is the one the media and the public are going to go for most deeply, despite the flimsiness of the Gurkhas argument.
There is a danger that the other points will appear to non-Gurkhas as trivial and indeed vexatious and only serve to dilute the main attention grabber.

It's perhaps of note that the protest group's letter to Boris Johnson, warning of the strike does not talk of pension, instead it refers to

""This dialogue would he the primary step for both the British and Nepal Government to resolve the Ex British Gurkha issues and come to a mutual agreement on all outstanding genuine grievances that has been long overdue. ""
link to article Letter to PM
Occasionally there is an insight into the other demands in the media, this one from Berkshire Live.
""The Gurkhas demands include equal and preserved pension, compensation, a settlement UK visa for adult Gurkha children, equal treatment for the Gurkha widows and free medical facilities to the Gurkha retirees in Nepal as provided to British pensioners in the UK.""

Other demands that have surfaced include which may or may not be in the list but are current
Free British Citizenship for Gurkhas (no fees, no tests)
Compensation for excess time families were kept apart
Compensation for Gurkhas not allowed to extend their service after marrying non-Nepalese.
Pensions for those 100+ soldiers dismissed after the Hawaiian Mutiny.

And so on.

Thank you.

 

[Rapierman]

Might I suggest you look at the plight of servicemen and women,who served before 1975,and then tell me the Gurkhas deserve a break...I might also add,if they get a retrospective payment, then I want one too !

Might I suggest that also everybody has a right to complain, terms of service are no different to any contract with it's express and implied terms and is a mutual agreement and at any point you disagree a grievance can be formally made and has to be investigated. Although it may feel like it at times, you always had terms of redress but as it was always seen as un-manly people kept quiet as not to look like a whinging gayer.

 

[stacker1]

Might I suggest that also everybody has a right to complain, terms of service are no different to any contract with it's express and implied terms and is a mutual agreement and at any point you disagree a grievance can be formally made and has to be investigated. Although it may feel like it at times, you always had terms of redress but as it was always seen as un-manly people kept quiet as not to look like a whinging gayer.

The thing is they didn't complain when the majority them had the advantage over their British counterparts. Now decades later they want more cash.
So **** them.

 

[RoofRat]

Might I suggest that also everybody has a right to complain, terms of service are no different to any contract with it's express and implied terms and is a mutual agreement and at any point you disagree a grievance can be formally made and has to be investigated. Although it may feel like it at times, you always had terms of redress but as it was always seen as un-manly people kept quiet as not to look like a whinging gayer gurkha.

Fixed that for you.

Not forgetting of course, the gurkhas had every opportunity to read their terms of service before signing on the dotted line and, weren't forced to enlist.

You might also consider no whinging from them,when they were getting their pension and, British service personnel weren't pre-75.

The protestors, most of whom I would opine retired pre-97,made a rod for their own back, by deciding that the retrospective ruling in 2004 meant they could return to the UK, without considering the fiscal consequences.

Bottom line...tough shit. They've exhausted all legal avenues and are now pulling the wool over the eyes of an uniformed public and, trying to con the taxpayer !

I would love to live in Monaco,but realised a long time ago...I can't afford to, the sums aren't difficult to do !

Failure to apply Micawber's formula, isn't the UK's problem !

 

[RoofRat]

Might I suggest that also everybody has a right to complain, terms of service are no different to any contract with it's express and implied terms and is a mutual agreement and at any point you disagree a grievance can be formally made and has to be investigated. Although it may feel like it at times, you always had terms of redress but as it was always seen as un-manly people kept quiet as not to look like a whinging gayer.

As to your last sentence,I think the more pragmatic amongst us would refer to that as "flogging a dead horse",rather than to be seen as "unmanly".

Having signed up in 65,my TACOS were explained to me in no uncertain terms. Retention rates of JNco's was abysmal,even in my Corps. Most of us joined to learn a Trade and get out because, none of us were going to serve 22 years. In my case,it didn't go to plan but after 75, lots of junior ranks would decide when their options came up,rather than just get their discharge.

My personal view is, after we left Hong Kong, the Brigade of Gurkhas became an anachronism. Harsh but,when you consider all the old County Regiments that have gone to the wall yet, the Gurkhas are still around ?

The Gurkhas were a cheap alternative but...not anymore !

 

[Stanchion]

They've exhausted all legal avenues and are now pulling the wool over the eyes of an uniformed public and, trying to con the taxpayer !

In a nutshell !

 

[par avion]

""The Gurkhas demands include equal and preserved pension, compensation, a settlement UK visa for adult Gurkha children, equal treatment for the Gurkha widows and free medical facilities to the Gurkha retirees in Nepal as provided to British pensioners in the UK.""

Other demands that have surfaced include which may or may not be in the list but are current
Free British Citizenship for Gurkhas (no fees, no tests)
Compensation for excess time families were kept apart
Compensation for Gurkhas not allowed to extend their service after marrying non-Nepalese.
Pensions for those 100+ soldiers dismissed after the Hawaiian Mutiny.

So basically they want far better treatment and terms of service than soldiers recruited from the Commonwealth like Fijians, Ghanians, West Indians, South Africans and Zimbabweans.

 

[par avion]

Oh yes the Great British Public fell for the fiction that these elderly Gurkha soldiers wanted nothing more than to while away their final days in the country they loved (despite most of them never having been here)

I think most of them would have done at least one two year tour of Church Crookham during 15 years service.

From 1971 when the Brigade of Gurkhas left Singapore and Malaysia and was concentrated in Hong Kong until 1994 when the battalions were amalgamated into the Royal Gurkha Rifles there posting cycle for the five Gurkha infantry battalions was roughly a ten year cycle:

4 years in HK.

2 years in Brunei.

2 years in HK.

2 years in Church Crookham, UK.

 

[fingers_1661]

Unfortunately this is far more complicated than the British Public has been lead to believe. Prior to 1997 the Gurkha's terms of service were entirely different to the rest of the Army, the simplest difference being that their colour service was typically for 15 years whereas for everyone else it was for 22. If two recruits (1x UK and 1x Gurkha) joined on the same day and were discharged 15 years later at the age of 33 the Gurkha could draw his pension immediately whereas the Brit would have to wait until his 60th birthday before his 'preserved pension' under AFP 1975 regs (still in force until at least 2005) kicked in. There are other differences too but you get my point. HMG will open a can of worms if they get this wrong & two points that immediately spring to mind are;

- As a result of Tom King's amalgamations several anomalies arose when some Regiments and Corps were cut-and-shut. It was quite common for say a warrant officer in old Corps or Regt A to be replaced by or serve alongside another from old Corps or Regt B on a higher pay band (typically band 5 & 7 to be exact, with 7 being the higher of the two) while doing exactly the same job in their new Regt or Corps. If they retired soon afterwards their pensions reflected same.

- On the periphery of all this is the additional fact there are large number of British ex servicemen & women around the world that are caught up in the 'frozen pension' fiasco (NOT their military pensions I should add!). If HMG roll over on pre 97 Gurkha pensions in UK they can expect a tsunami of complaints from veterans abroad who have waited much longer for similar action re their UK state pensions aka their old age pensions (OAP's.) Link: Home | International Consortium of British Pensioners Campaign to unfreeze pensions

Good luck trying to sort that mess out, lol.

 

[Filthy_contract]

And six months leave every three years with a free ticket to Nepal.

Those recruited from the Commonwealth receive a similar package. DOMCOL, iirc.

 

[Stanchion]

I think most of them would have done at least one two year tour of Church Crookham during 15 years service.

From 1971 when the Brigade of Gurkhas left Singapore and Malaysia and was concentrated in Hong Kong until 1994 when the battalions were amalgamated into the Royal Gurkha Rifles there posting cycle for the five Gurkha infantry battalions was roughly a ten year cycle:

4 years in HK.

2 years in Brunei.

2 years in HK.

2 years in Church Crookham, UK.

Yes you are right of course, about the movement of Gurkha battalions
However the claim regarding elderly Gurkhas dearly wanting to die in the country they served so loyally** was around even before Joanna signed up to the campaign in 2008.
These men would have been (and as it turned out to be be with the reported stories of the initial tranche being propelled to UK,) aged 70-80.
So those who had completed their 15 years at aged 33-34, the norm would have completed their service around 1970, too early for the UK roulement to have had much effect on the majority

** That was another blatant lie, so typical of the campaign - Gurkhas usually want to die in the village of their birth, even if they have settled, post-service in places like Pokhara.

 

[par avion]

Yes you are right of course, about the movement of Gurkha battalions
However the claim regarding elderly Gurkhas dearly wanting to die in the country they served so loyally** was around even before Joanna signed up to the campaign in 2008.
These men would have been (and as it turned out to be be with the reported stories of the initial tranche being propelled to UK,) aged 70-80.
So those who had completed their 15 years at aged 33-34, the norm would have completed their service around 1970, too early for the UK roulement to have had much effect on the majority

** That was another blatant lie, so typical of the campaign - Gurkhas usually want to die in the village of their birth, even if they have settled, post-service in places like Pokhara.

I know that in the mid eighties a British Army officer in GTR told me that a Gurkha Staff Sergeant in Hong Kong was on the same wage as the Prime Minister of Nepal. In Hong Kong they were little more than a Gendarmerie. After the end of Confrontation until the handover in 1997 with the exception of the Falkands they saw little action. There main role in HK was IS in support of the RHKP as after 1976 there were no armoured or artillery units in the Colony. They went on exotic exercises to Fiji, Hawai (and they f*cked that up) Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia and PNG. In Brunei their main job was supporting TTB and the only tours they did was the odd Belize tour when they were in the UK unlike British battalions with their constant NI tours.

 

[RoofRat]

I've now been banned from commenting on a FB page (BAOR Photos) for 3 weeks, after correcting video posts from 'Whitehall' and, objecting to "The Bravest of the Brave" trope. The amount of ex-squaddies who just trot out the crap and, are clueless about what is going on, is unbelievable !

 

[Joker62]

I've now been banned from commenting on a FB page (BAOR Photos) for 3 weeks, after correcting video posts from 'Whitehall' and, objecting to "The Bravest of the Brave" trope. The amount of ex-squaddies who just trot out the crap and, are clueless about what is going on, is unbelievable !

Not just ex-squaddies, a mate of mine, never served civvy, has unfriended (boohoo) me on FB due to me letting him know the list of reasons posted above ref Gurkha "demands". This guy is a staunch anti immigrant supporter and just latches onto things like the DFLA, Soldier F and assorted other "wronged" causes, can't wait to bump into him in the pub.

 

[Rapierman]

Fixed that for you.

Not forgetting of course, the gurkhas had every opportunity to read their terms of service before signing on the dotted line and, weren't forced to enlist.

You might also consider no whinging from them,when they were getting their pension and, British service personnel weren't pre-75.

The protestors, most of whom I would opine retired pre-97,made a rod for their own back, by deciding that the retrospective ruling in 2004 meant they could return to the UK, without considering the fiscal consequences.

Bottom line...tough shit. They've exhausted all legal avenues and are now pulling the wool over the eyes of an uniformed public and, trying to con the taxpayer !

I would love to live in Monaco,but realised a long time ago...I can't afford to, the sums aren't difficult to do !

Failure to apply Micawber's formula, isn't the UK's problem !

Thing is how many of us fully read terms and conditions, it's no different to buying a new telly, sign here here and here and wahey got new telly but did not realise it was 800% APR and you had donated all your organs and corneas to someone. I do agree with the level playing field bit though, however I stand by the fact that everybody has the right to redress and have their case heard if they think they have been treated unfairly or hoodwinked. Think PPI claims, think bank charges etc. It only takes one case to be successful then open the gates. The main issue here is as a nation we do not like to complain or cause a fuss. If we were french the country would down tools !

 

[Deleted 156636]

Thing is how many of us fully read terms and conditions, it's no different to buying a new telly, sign here here and here and wahey got new telly but did not realise it was 800% APR and you had donated all your organs and corneas to someone. I do agree with the level playing field bit though, however I stand by the fact that everybody has the right to redress and have their case heard if they think they have been treated unfairly or hoodwinked. Think PPI claims, think bank charges etc. It only takes one case to be successful then open the gates. The main issue here is as a nation we do not like to complain or cause a fuss. If we were french the country would down tools !

Ignorance of the law is no defence ….